Dialogue with the Director Archives Dialogue with the Director

Director Saralyn Reece Hardy speaks with Spencer Student Advisory Board president Kim Brook and secretary Jeremy Neumann.

As the fall semester wound to a close, Spencer Student Advisory Board president Kim Brook and secretary Jeremy Neumann sat down with Saralyn Reece Hardy to discuss their ideas and aspirations for student involvement in the Spencer.

Saralyn Reece Hardy: You have leadership roles on the Spencer's Student Advisory Board, so you have a unique opportunity to be both inside the Spencer Museum and to be part of the student body. So if you were to wish anything for the Spencer, for it to reach your highest hopes, what would that look like? What kind of aspirations would you have for the museum?

Kim Brook: I think as a student, the fact that the students have a voice in what the Spencer says and how the Spencer chooses exhibitions. I'm talking about a voice on a participation level, where it's not two separate entities where it's the Spencer and it's the student body, because it's the University of Kansas' museum. And I think that combination, the merging of the two where a student feels "I'm important here, and what I think is important." So if I can have a forum to say that, where it's appreciated, and encouraged, and taken into account, I think that's what everybody wants. Everyone wants to have his or her voice heard.  

SRH: When you say "voice," what does that actually mean for students? How does that play out?

Jeremy Neumann: In this situation I think it means being able to voice what's going on today in society and what we can learn from the past. Having the Spencer open to students influencing what's on the walls, what the programs are, who comes in and talks to us--that kind of influence. We want to have a voice in our educational experience, on how we further enrich our education, from what's going on in the classroom, as well as what's currently happening in the art world, in the political world, in the world at large.

This is a really good opportunity to show a new generation what their voice is, how they can express viewpoints. What we have out here (in the Spencer's main hallway) on the walls, the student work, to me is very, very prominent in giving students voices. You can go around the corner and see past generations' voices, and you can walk right into the building and see this generation's voices. That's a powerful statement to me.

SRH: We're talking about voice in terms of having some kind of influence. Is that fair to say?

KB: Yes. It's having a voice that matters. It goes hand in hand. It's having a voice that speaks, a voice that matters, as well as ears that listen. What would one be without the other? And for us it's nice to see that the Spencer promotes the listening ears. When you think your voice matters, you're more, I think, apt to use it.

SRH: I want to ask you a slightly more revolutionary question. If the two of you were able to sit in my chair for the next year, and you were temporarily appointed as the director and the assistant director of the Spencer, and your constituency was really the students--say for a minute you're not worrying about all the other constituencies we have--what would be your first couple of priorities? How would you change the programming of the Spencer? What would you do differently in the galleries? Do you have any wild fantasies about that?

KB: I'd move the museum up on campus.

SRH: So if you could move it conceptually, what would you move up there?

JN: I would put a big piece of artwork out in front of Wescoe Beach or out in front of Watson Library that would tie into the Spencer. Something that would stand out, something that would be a little controversial, maybe, and would get the town talking and the student body talking.

KB: I think very much, though, that's how the ( Spencer @ Work ) frame in front of the museum has worked. It's kind of taken the museum out of the museum, as much as one can do that. And I think that's been really great. So the idea of Wescoe Beach is great. A lot of time people don't want to come to the mountain, you know? Sometimes the mountain has to go to them! And I think the idea of having movies, like we're showing "Office Space" here soon, to try to put that into a greater theme of the museum, I think that works.

SRH: So you're suggesting that we not only have to be presenting things inside the museum that are of interest to students, but that we really think seriously about moving beyond in a physical way.  

JN: Yes. And as far as the museum goes, I would choose a gallery and pull everything off the walls, paint them all white, and put up an online poll to determine what goes back up on the walls. We're building this big library of images in the collection, so let's have the student body and the faculty take an online poll to decide what's up there.

SRH: Let's take that one step further. We've identified a gallery to do this in. We've painted the walls all white. Now, how does this work exactly?

JN: Once the image database of the entire collection is finished, you conduct an online poll. Yeah, it's a huge thing! The faculty could maybe narrow it down a little. You could take, say, 50 works of art, place them on the website. Students would sign in and pick which ones they want to see on the walls. Then you'd narrow it down to say, 15--whatever fits on the walls--and that's what you'd have on display.

SRH: So the gallery actually changes according to an opinion poll?

JN: Well, I think I'd call it an "interest poll." There's so much in this collection that we don't see. Who knows what's back there, you know?

KB: Even being on the Student Advisory Board, we have so little knowledge of the collection, of everything that's in it. Sometimes, certain classes see the things that are in storage, but this (digitization project) will be great in educating people about what there is.

JN: We need to be regularly changing what's up there, keeping it fresh. Some of the galleries are the same as they were when I came here three years ago.

SRH: How often would we have to change the galleries to keep it fresh for students?

JN: To me, it would be almost twice a semester. Or at least, twice a semester in one designated gallery. I know that some of the galleries are changing, but I mean, the permanent collections, like the Renaissance Gallery, need to be shaken up a little.

KB: I think even once a semester would be good.

SRH: There's a lot of discussion in the museum world right now about the balancing of the threads of history and the need for a more responsive organization. So on one hand there's the need for familiarity, where if you have a favorite work of art you want to come in and show to a friend, you want it to be predictably there, and accessible. Then on the other hand, you want it to be changing into something engaging and new. Do you have any sense of how a museum like the Spencer can be both those things? What needs to be predictable and what needs to be ever changing?

KB: There needs to be that feeling that there is motion in art, there is progression in art. To have motion and progression, you need that traditional starting point, and you need then to show the full kind of progression so that you don't ever see art as a stagnant concept. So what would stay? What would change? I don't know. I sort of like this concept of having one changing gallery for the permanent collection because it's true that it's pretty unrealistic to expect to change the whole museum on a regular basis. So the fact there's one small area where if I go, I know that I'll see something new there from the collection, that I'll be challenged in a way that I haven't been challenged. And not necessarily challenged by what I'm used to seeing, or that I'm challenged in the way of how do I make that connection between what I'm used to seeing and what is new. But definitely, I think Jeremy's on to something there. I used to work in retail, and the store windows always change, and that alone could pull you in.

SRH: If we moved this discussion to what I would consider to be the profound and fundamental reasons that you have in cultural institutions like museums, and we assume that in a cultural institution, part of your role is to benefit society and to make a difference in the lives of people, what would that difference be if you could envision any kind of difference that the Spencer could make in the lives of Kansans, in the lives of people? How would you talk about that? The Spencer is successful because it....

KB: Because it inspires. Especially today, sometimes you really need just a little bit of inspiration. Sometimes people get so stressed, where they don't take time out for that, and they just need something that's inspiring--something that provides even a moment of joy. I think that's how I would like to see the Spencer connect with people. To inspire you to go out and do something bigger. To think about "what is my purpose?" and to help you find that purpose and do things toward that purpose. And if the Spencer knows its purpose and shows it, I can be inspired by that purpose. I don't have to be an art historian. I don't have to be a painter. I can take that joy and that inspiration and put it in my life, so that I can be what I am supposed to be.

JN: I also see the Spencer as a place to be inspired. You can go to New York, go to all the museums, but we have such an extraordinary collection right here, in Kansas, that it's kind of humbling.

SRH: I've always had the opinion that when it has to do with knowledge or inspiration--those things that are intangible--a cultural organization in some way needs to make the intangible tangible. In some ways I think an art museum is uniquely positioned to do that. Jeremy, you mentioned the comprehensive collection. And I think one of the issues at the Spencer is that to have something that is comprehensive really demands the viewers to try to ask questions about a number of things. So can you think of something that recently you have seen in the museum that struck you as something you wanted to think about differently as a result of looking at it, that challenged some assumption that you had?

JN: Well, I really liked looking at Native Perspectives on the Trail . Seeing that work challenges perceptions, certain stereotypical ideas, because of how the artists have expressed their views. The issues they address a lot of times get pushed to the back of people's minds. So the work in that exhibition is a reminder, a link from the past to the present for me, and it inspires me to learn more, to find out what this art is speaking about. And I think you can do that with any of the galleries, with some of the photography collection, for example, that relates to actual events.

SRH: The Native Perspectives on the Trail exhibition is an excellent example of what a museum can do that an opinion poll cannot do. So we're always having this dialogue about what's popular and what's important, and that's part of the job of a museum--to sort that out and be engaging, but not superficial. So to go back, using the example of Native Perspectives, we were able to foreground some expressive ideas that aren't necessarily a historical story we all know.

JN: Yeah. I can't pick up a textbook and read that. I experienced that when I viewed those works of art. Then I can try to find out more about that artist and what they were saying.

SRH: An alternative way of looking at an event?

JN: Yes.

SRH: What about you, Kim?

KB: Yes. I liked the fact that I could see art produced by people I know, by faculty who have taught me, in the Recent Acquisitions show and in the faculty show from last spring. Because it shows that art isn't distant. My drawing teacher, every day for five days a week over the summer, I saw that part of his life. Creation is part of his life, and that the Spencer shows that to me is very important in that it makes the connection to home even closer for me. So to know that there's someone whose work is in this collection who also is teaching me, I think that says a lot. It closes the gap, closes the distance.

SRH: You used the word creation . And I wanted to elaborate on something that I think is really important in the museum--that it's a living institution, rather than a place to store things. So while I do believe that the museum is a place to steward art, to care for it, and that that is one of its roles, I think that the other role that we have a very unique opportunity to explore is the creative role--the involvement of living artists, the involvement of students.

So you've mentioned a couple of things that I think are important. One is that the museum needs to go beyond this space. And the museum also needs to be capable of change and adaptation. Then there's this idea about bringing the creative process into the museum. What else? Is there anything else that you would promote as the new directors of the Spencer?

KB: A study lounge.

SRH: What would that look like?   Better yet, what would that feel like? What would be unique about that?

JN: Something that was homey, comfortable. You always come to study lounges and they're library-like, but I think it would be cool to have a study lounge that was more comfortable and inviting.

SRH: What about my offices as a temporary study lounge, maybe for the month of February?

KB: I think it just would be neat to have a study lounge here.

SRH: Does it need to have art?

KB & JN: Yes! (in unison)

JN: You go down to Starbucks, and they have art on the walls that you see and discuss. I think it would be interesting to come into a study lounge and have something on the walls that breeds discovery and communication within the study atmosphere.

SRH: So if we had little pocket study lounges around the museum, that would be a good thing.

JN: Yes. And it would be cool to have a coffee shop in the museum.

SRH: Both of you, I'm sure, use your computer to receive information.

JN: Tons of it. It's scary.

SRH: How many hours do you think you spend in front of your computer screen?

JN: I don't know if I want to answer that! In a week?

SRH: In a day.

KB: Receiving information or just sitting in front of a computer doing work?

SRH: Anything.

JN: Interacting and using and studying and being a part of the online community, that social thing?

KB: I'd probably say two hours, but I'm probably on the low end.

JN: Five to six hours.

SRH: There is no "average" student, but would you say that it's not unusual for a student to spend five or six hours a day on the computer?

KB: Yes.

SRH: So where does the museum fit into your life--different than a computer screen? What do you depend on the museum to provide that a computer screen can't?

JN: Tangible objects, physical objects that you can get two centimeters from and you can see the little textures, the little bumps, details in the works that you could never recreate, and just the atmosphere. The smell, the ambience of walking into the Central Court and having this grand space around you and the actual physical objects, not bytes of data. I can go online and learn about that stuff, but I can come to the Spencer and really see it, get close to it. The computer trains you to perceive things differently--you see that image and you may think you know what it is, but you don't know what it really is until you've seen it up close, in person.   I mean, it could be a panel, or a canvas work, and you'd never know that on the screen unless it was detailed in the description, and even then it's not the same. You come to the museum and you can find that out.

KB: It's life. It's the difference between living two-dimensionally and three-dimensionally. And that in itself is huge. You get out of your house, you go see people, you walk into the building, you hear other conversations, you watch little kids walk around--that's all part of it. It's not just looking even at the painting, it's the whole interaction, just the whole life of it. So for me it's that whole difference between two-dimensional and three-dimensional life.

SRH: I love the different kinds of comparisons that you're making. Museums have been called public squares, where the public can come together in a safe space and have ideas and discuss. They've also been called places of reverie, where you can kind of get away from it all and seek inspiration--kind of spiritual places. They've also been called treasure houses. They've also been called platforms for dialogue. So if you had to choose two or three of those for the Spencer, could you prioritize which model would be most important?

KB: A place of celebration. A place to celebrate the past and present in art form. Public square--that works. Reverie--that works. But I think sometimes what museums lack a little bit is the joy part of it.

JN: I see it as a podium, a lectern, a place to voice and discuss and be enlightened and enriched.

SRH: In closing, I am, as you know, very interested in the ideas of students, and the Student Advisory Board seems to be going really well, but I'd like you to project yourself to be KU alumni. Imagine someone comes to you and says, "we want you to support the museum," and you say "here's the part of the museum I would like to support, here's the specific programs I want to support, and here's my $100 to do that." What would those programs and activities be?

KB: The Student Advisory Board, I guess!

JN: My $100--hopefully more--as a KU alumni would probably go toward activities for kids. I personally didn't come to the Spencer as a kid but I remember those places that I did go to. I would invest it in activities for the kids because then those kids grow up knowing what the Spencer is and that's better for us all, as far as the Spencer, as far as KU. So I'd put half toward that, and half toward getting more up and coming artists' work on the walls--connecting the Spencer to KU, Kansas and the Midwest, and making it the premiere place to come see what the Midwest is about as far as art.

KB: Actually I think I'd put it toward the docents. They do so much work and are so important to what happens here. I look at the tag sale they had last fall and they raised so much money for the children's programs. I really see them as the backbone, as a very strong part of the museum.

SRH: Is there anything else that either of you would like to say as part of this conversation?

KB: Well, I think I speak for both Jeremy and myself that it's really a great privilege to sit down and talk with you like this. We appreciate the fact that you have taken so much interest in the Student Advisory Board. That says something about what you want for the museum, so thank you for listening and for taking our opinions and ideas to heart, which I think you do.

JN: I am sitting here in this chair, and my brain's being picked a little, and I would want our student body to know that there's the opportunity for their voices to be heard to, for their brains to be picked. If you have something to say, if you have an idea, then let someone here know.

SRH: Make a little noise.

JN: Yes. Make a little noise.

SRH: And I want to thank you both for coming in and talking with me today, because the truth is that a museum is only as vital as the people who care about it. So for me, it seems that the main job I have is figuring out what people care the most about. And I hope that in the future there will be lots of student groups involved at the museum.